Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reese Williams and Bianca Montgomery

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was nomination withdrawn. Significant notability has been demonstrated in that this is the first lesbian couple in an American soap opera. Also, the shape of the article has improved dramatically, with a 35-fold increase in its size to prove it. Thirteen reliable and verifiable sources have made this a viable article. Thank you to User:Rocksey for all the work he put in. Closure by nominator and non-administrator. Raymie Humbert (TrackerTV) (receiver, archives) 04:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Reese Williams and Bianca Montgomery

Reese Williams and Bianca Montgomery (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

A fictional couple in a TV show. Is this needed here? Raymie Humbert (TrackerTV) (receiver, archives) 01:49, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Bianca and Reese are proving a point that you can be lesbin couple on a soap opera. --M42380 (talk) 01:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

• Delete and no redirect- There is already an article on Bianca Montgomery which covers this, plus article List of All My Children characters which lists the other character. No reason to create another article to describe relationship between two characters in a soap opera. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 04:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
• Note/Comment. It does not matter that the Bianca Montgomery article already exists. Two characters having their own individual articles does not negate those two characters having a couple article about them, if the couple is notable. The article Bianca Montgomery and Maggie Stone is an example of that. Other examples can be found at List of fictional supercouples. That said, I am very angry that M42380 chose to create this article after I told M42380 that I would create this article and the article Reese Williams would be redirected there due to the fact that Reese Williams is a new character mostly tied to Bianca and they are a notable couple. I do not like to be rushed. I had planned on adding more well-sourced information to the Bianca Montgomery article first, then to create the Lena Kundera and Bianca Montgomery article, then this one. I am not about to rush to add notability to this article when the Lena and Bianca article I am soon to create deserves my attention first. Therefore, this article can go ahead and be deleted. I will recreate it soon enough, with proper formatting and notability. Flyer22 (talk) 06:31, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
• Keep- I disagree with the reason this was put up for deletion. This isn't the first Wikipedia article about a fictional couple on a TV show. Also, Reese and Bianca are already a groundbreaking couple even though they're extremely new.Rocksey (talk) 08:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. This article was put up for deletion with valid reason. If M42380 wants to create articles here, then M42380 needs to learn how to follow the Wikipedia:Notability policy, like I pointed out on M42380's talk page. Frankly, I am tired of bailing editors out of situations like this or similar to this when they should have been the ones to provide notability for those articles. New editors like M42380 need to learn. But M42380 is a new editor and we must keep that in mind. Rocksey is right that this couple is already groundbreaking. To help out, here is a reference from AfterEllen.com editor Sarah Warn, that proves it: [1]. I was just being bitter because I do not like being forced into something. It takes significant time and effort to construct these articles, and I had already had this article outlined in my head of how I wanted to create it and when I was going to create it, which would be soon. But I may have time to go ahead and fix up this article with that same outline in mind without rushing. In the meantime, if I do not get to it, perhaps it will be fixed up by Rocksey, who has already started to fix it up and who has proven herself to be an excellent editor here in creating/fixing up fictional character/couple articles. Flyer22 (talk) 08:48, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
  • second comment Flyer22, I never asked you to help me out. I am still learning at Wikipedia and don't know everything about this site.. THank you for helping me. --M42380 (talk) 18:03, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
  • comment Thanks,Flyer22 for the compliment and the reference. I will try to fix it up. To clarify, I do agree that this article shouldn't have been made so soon. Reese has only just started airing a few days ago. I just don't agree with the reason Raymie Humbert (TrackerTV) wrote for the deletion. The article shouldn't be deleted just because it's about a fictional couple. There are several out there right now. Even though it is pretty soon to be creating this, I've already found some good references for it. Rocksey (talk) 21:56, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 10:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 10:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
• delete . It's better handled and more complete in the article on Bianca. Since there's no article on Reese, make one, even if it duplicates partially. DGG (talk) 03:10, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. It's only handled and more complete in the Bianca article because this article (Reese Williams and Bianca Montgomery) has not yet been written properly. The Bianca article only covers the plot about this couple, and very little of the plot. I would hardly call that complete or truly represenative of this notable couple. With a Writing section and an Impact section, this article will stand on its own; there is enough real-world information and notability regarding this couple for this article to exist with merit. The Reese Williams article does exist. The fact is...she should not have an article yet. She is not yet a developed character and all of her notability lies with her romantic pairing with Bianca Montgomery. This article should remain and the Reese Williams article should be redirected to this one. If I or if Rocksey fixes up this article before this deletion debate is over, I will "vote" Keep. Flyer22 (talk) 05:08, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep . Reese and Bianca are inportant in enough to keep their suppercouple page open for others to view. --M42380 (talk) 15:15, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
• DELETE Can easily be assimilated into Bianca Montgomery article. Wikipedia is not a fansite for All My Children and articles on every pairing that ever takes part on the show is not neccessary or desirable. References from soap opera publications cannot be taken as a neutral viewpoint of the notability of the couple. Paul75 (talk) 03:06, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. I point out that Paul75 feels this way about all fictional couple or supercouple articles. Probably even the Lost (TV series) featured couple article Nikki and Paulo. Saying that information on this couple can easily be assimilated in the Bianca Montgomery article is silly. Why should it be, when it will needlessly make that article longer and this couple is notable all on its own? I provided the AfterEllen.com reference above that clearly shows this couple's notability. Wikipedia surely is not a fansite, and will not have an article for every All My Children pairing that ever takes part on this show; it will, however, have a Wikipedia article for every notable pairing that takes part on this show, and Wikipedia's policy for articles on fiction allows that. It not being necessary is only an opinion, just as if it were felt that the article on Nikki and Paulo is not necessary and should instead be easily assimilated into the Lost (TV series) article. The Reese Williams and Bianca Montgomery couple also does not soley have references from soap opera publications to prove its notability. The AfterEllen.com reference is just one example of that. Flyer22 (talk) 22:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Please remember to keep comments about the article in question and not about other editors. --neon white talk 00:20, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• • Question Why can't soap opera publications be taken as a neutral viewpoint?

Also, I've done some work to add real world material with references. Rocksey (talk) 11:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• Additional comment. As further proof of what this article can be, I advise others and the closing administrator of this debate to look at the Lena Kundera and Bianca Montgomery article I just created. That article is very valid, very relevant, and the couple is very notable. I do not create fluff articles. In the same way that the information in that article on Lena Kundera and Bianca Montgomery would have taken over too much of the Bianca Montgomery article, so would all the information I have of the Reese Williams and Bianca Montgomery couple. Bottomline is...the Reese Williams and Bianca Montgomery couple is very notable; they carried out the first marriage proposal between lesbians on an American soap opera, and will be the first lesbian marriage on an American soap opera, possibly any soap opera. In addition, they are notable for displaying more onscreen kisses than any of Bianca's other romantic pairings, and the controversy surrounding Bianca's second child. There is no valid point in deleting this article when I have provided a little notability for it above, and when all that will happen is my recreating it to comply with Wikipedia's standards in full. Deleting it, essentially, would be a waste of time. Flyer22 (talk) 12:55, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

If this is the case then there should be no trouble finding mutliple second party sources. --neon white talk 00:23, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no trouble. I gave one third party source above. Others can easily be found if people would Google good enough. But it should also be kept in mind that Google and online sources are not everything. This article has not been fixed up completely yet...because I have not done so yet. Flyer22 (talk) 00:44, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. It's apparent that Rocksey has now started fixing up this article and has now provided more second party sources. Looks like I will be "voting" Keep now below. Flyer22 (talk) 01:05, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Flyer22 has been reported here [2] for attempting the prejudice the outcome of this AfD by using proof by assertionPaul75 (talk) 23:51, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. There is nothing wrong with pointing out a biased "vote" whatsoever, and it has been done in deletion debates here before. This is not the first deletion debate I have pointed out a biased "vote" in. And as for my comments about keeping the article in general, but writing paragraphs and paragraphs of reasons why the article should not be deleted, simply reiterating my viewpoint over and over again every time an editor makes an argument for deleting the article is exactly what goes on in deletion debates. I have not stated the same exact thing over and over again, anyway. My comments are helpful and justified, and do not stop a fair or truthful deletion procedure. Flyer22 (talk) 00:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
• Delete ASAP Welcome to 2008 - it's no longer a big/notable thing to be a lesbian, and many other shows have been there before. To actually say this is now a big deal is rather ... well, bigoted (and so 1970's), IMHO.
  • Comment. Welcome to 2008 is exactly what American soap opera viewers still have to say to networks, and to some viewers who do not want to see it. It is still a big/notable thing to be gay or lesbian on an American soap opera, and especially to have a gay or lesbian romance on an American soap opera, despite that many other shows have been there before. To actually say this is now a big deal is rather ... well, not bigoted (and not so 1970s); it's the truth. Gay and lesbian romances on American soap operas are extremely rare. If they were not, then this couple would not be groundbreaking for including the first lesbian marriage proposal on an American soap opera and for the upcoming first same-sex marriage on an Ameriacn soap opera. Flyer22 (talk) 00:44, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. This couple is clearly notable, as I have pointed out above, and this article has now started being fixed up and now has second party sources to prove its notability. More fixing up and second party sources will continue to be done/added to this article. Flyer22 (talk) 01:05, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.